Basically, here are the problems:
- It is an intense job. Lots of 1-1. Hearing people's problems. Full on.
- You have to drum up business yourself. Really hard to make another phone call asking a busy woman to meet up with you.
- Unstructured. Guys have a sermon to write (at least sometimes). Girls have no big structure dominating each week.
- You have to work with, for and under men. Men who are married to other women (mostly). This is hard because they want to be godly, so keep you at arms length. But you need to have someone to offload to. Also hard because, lets face it, men live on a different planet to women and can't understand.
- 'Women's workers' are usually single. Being single can be tricky at the best of times, but working for a church can exasperate feelings of loneliness and isolation.
- Job insecurity. The last to be put on, the first to be put off.
- a largely invisible role
- Being bottom of the pecking order is tough, year in and year out.
Would we ever employ a guy in church to do 'men's ministry'? No. We'd employ a guy to do such and such a job and he'd minister to guys because he is one. Employ a woman to co-ordinate growth groups, children's ministry... whatever... and she will do 'women's work' along the way but she'll have:
- a structure to her week
- respect from the staff team and congregation because she is doing a job
- more job security
- purpose
- a real role.
Hi Simone,
ReplyDeletethanks for the insights. The whole issue of women's ministry is something that I've been thinking about lately.
Rach Enchelmaier
I've always had a problem with the term "women's ministry" - is that meant to be ministry done to women? by women? for women? Coupled with the fact that you never hear the term "men's ministry" it sounds like a catch-all to get women out of the way of "the main game". It's a yech label - one that's used to sideline a group or issue.
ReplyDeleteIndeed, give her a regular role. Thankfully, some churches have realised that that role may be preaching.
Hey Laetitia. I think women are put into 'women's worker' type roles in a genuine attempt to acknowledge that women can and should minister in churches. The female FT church workers I know have no desire to preach on a Sunday morning - they are convinced that the bible prohibits this (as I am). However, I'm coming to suspect that the 'women's worker' role is one that's not very well thought out. I have a friend very gifted in organisation who, I think would do very well in an 'executive pastor' type role - taking responsibility for the smooth running of the church machine, as well as the teaching and pastoring that she'd do as well.
ReplyDeleteLaetitia, just to say I think you do hear the term 'Men's ministry' as well as 'women's ministry' - at least you do in our church and most others that I am aware of.
ReplyDeleteAlso, it sounds like we're going to disagree on this, but I actually think it's a great shame when 'the real game' means preaching, and when anyone who wants to uphold the Biblical principle that Men teach mixed congregations is seen as sidelining women.
Personal bible study and encouragement with women is a vital role best done by women. The point Simone is making (I think...) is that it is often not well thought through as to how this role will be structured, or as to what other ways women's gifts could be appropriately used within a Biblical pattern.
Mmm, on further reflection, if I might be so bold to suggest it, and with appropriate fear and trembling (is that enough groveling), I wonder if the title of this post is unhelpful. It suggests that the work of teaching/encouraging women in 1-1 meetings and the like is not a real job. I'd have to disagree with this, as well as the idea that we'd never employ a man to do 'men's ministry'. We would - but we wouldn't employ every man to do just that kind of unstructured personal ministry - We'd think further about their gifts.
ReplyDeleteThe helpful point in this post is not that women need a 'real' job. It's that the breadth of a woman's gifts needs to be thoughtfully considered when writing her a ministry job description.
Hi guys,
ReplyDeletesorry to enter this discussion so late... been on holidays from my 'women's work' ;)
A few things:
1. I love the fact that Simone, as a minister's wife, cares so much for her single friends doing women's ministry! You are a great advocate and I really appreciate your support.
2. Some of the issues surrounding 'women's ministry' do actually apply to all ministry jobs, in particular the lack of definite structure. While most men do have sermons to write each week that adds some structure, not all do and for some the sermon writing time is unstructured. Additionally, some women are at churches where they do write sermons every week - for the women's mid-week Bible study groups. I'm not sure that it is the structure that is important so much as the individual thinking and reflection time that you get when writing a talk. Last semester I was doing an MA subject that gave me some definite 'in the office thinking, reflecting and writing' time that I am missing a bit this semester. It is a great privilege to get to read the Bible 1-2-1 with women and discuss it together, but it is also relationally intense. For me, that intensity has increased this semester with an increased number of 1-2-1's. My week has a lot of structure: MTS training, staff meetings, women's BS, evening BS, on campus main meetings, 8 x 1-2-1's .... all of which may be behind the scenes (but are seen by the only audience that counts - God) , but I do find it more relationally draining. We all have different relational capacities and need to work out our own balance around that.
3. I think Andrew's last comment about considering the breadth of a women's gifts when writing her job description is important (as it also is for men). Employing a person rather than filling a position, is a helpful principle for any staff team, so it is also helpful if the job description is written after the person has been working there for a little while - so they have a better understanding of the ministry and the senior minister has a better understanding of them and their gifts. In my previous job I was given a detailed job description written by a woman at the church who had only met me once or twice. The boss seemed to recognise that it was an impossible list to fulfill, so I was ok with it ... until I realised that he actually did want all those things done. Since I have left, they seem to have realised that they actually need 2-3 women to do all the things on the list.
In my new job I was given a few definite ministry areas to work in, but no job description as yet. The boss and I meet fortnightly to discuss how things are going and monthly I give him a dot-point list of things I have been doing (I initiated this so as to open up discussion should he want to change things. If he doesn't comment, then I can assume all is ok). He has said that he will give me a more definite job description now that he has had time to get to know me, but I can now be assured that the job description will be about using my gifts to serve God the best way I can, rather than squeezing me into a fixed role.
BTW Along with meeting up with women, I do actually spend time with our evening church minister thinking about how that congregation should run, what training we should run and other whole church things.
OOps need a second post...
4. I do think 'women's ministry' is a real job AND I would like to see more churches employ a man on staff to do 'Men's Ministry'. How great would it be for the men of our churches to have someone meet with them 1-2-1 before/after work, during a lunch break etc and read the Bible with them! How great would it be to have a minister employed to think about running evangelistic events aim specifically at men and conferences for men. I know some of these things happen in and around the men's other ministries ... but how much better if it was a fill-time position! (Maybe then I could throw out my 'don't date a non-Christian' talks ;) ) We need to move away from the idea that you are only doing real ministry if you are preaching... this would free many great men up for 1-2-1 teaching roles that are just as vital.
ReplyDelete5. The issues of single women working with and for married men really do need a LOT more thought by our churches in general. As Simone said, it can be a very isolating for the women and it would be helpful if we could work out how to reduce that isolation...
I think I've rambled on long enough. Thanks for the thoughts though Simone. It has got me thinking...