For Nathan.
I'm happy to argue out either of these. Because I'm right.
1. Poetry appreciation should be a compulsory part of a BTh.
2. In the interests of the long term health of our ministers, we should not serve coffee at (bible) college morning teas.
Take your pick. Others are welcome to join in.
Poetry.
ReplyDeleteA good amount of the bible is poetry. Even more can be considered poetic. If preachers are not able to (1.) recognise poetry (or the poetic) when they encounter it in scripture and (2.) deal with it appropriately, then they will do dreadful things with God's word.
A semester's course in reading poetry (starting with non-biblical and then moving to biblical texts) would stop some stupid things being said from the pulpit.
Agree?
Coffee.
ReplyDeleteCoffee is an addictive drug. Coffee is bad for you. Used for a long time, coffee will make you a less healthy and happy person. We want our minsters to be healthy and happy. Therefore, we will not provide them with strong and good-tasting coffee free of charge.
I don't mind poetry.
ReplyDeleteSee last week's post about the ministry that is good coffee - I am prepared to drink coffee so that by doing so I might win some.
You can choose not to partake in coffee - it sounds like you should not drink it based on your conscience.
I chose not to drink it based on my tastes - I hate even the smell of it! I think you are free to use this drug (it isn't illegal) I just think college should not pay for (and in doing so, encourage) your habit.
ReplyDeleteI don't think I really need to point out the gaping holes in last week's coffee post... do I?
I think you are absolutely right with no. 1. I agree with you.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure that you are right with no. 2. I love coffee. But if it can be proven that you are right, then I would have no problem agreeing with you and would cease drinking coffee straight away.
I also would have no problem if alcohol was banned overnight btw but that's another issue.
Go for it. There were no holes. The only holes I see are the holes on your tongue where your tastebuds should be.
ReplyDeleteI bet you were the person on the committee rumoured to be nixing the funding for the new percolater. It's people like you holding our denomination in the 1900s.
Doing OT with Kirk Patston deals with the first issue comprehensively... Doing Spiritual Formation for Ministry with Stuart Coulton just takes it to another level. Going to the right Bible College (he he), in the first place means that you wouldn't need to single poetry out!
ReplyDeleteI love Coffee...sure in the long run I may not be that happy or healthy...
But for what its worth, being "happy" is overrated, and doesn't make you a good minister. Most people I meet are not happy, and if i'm gonna be all things to all people... And I get the impression some of the greatest poets are (most likely coffee swilling) depressives.
Sounds a little abrasive... but your post is titled "pick a fight"
ReplyDeleteForget coffee- send em on a few laps of the oval and stop with the biscuits.
ReplyDeleteAndrew Shead (OT at Moore) and I SOOOOOO agree with you about poetry. Read ED Hirsh's How to Read a Poem And fall in love with Poetry...
Hey Simone - we're not alone (pun intended)!
ReplyDeleteAs for #2...in my time at college, it seems to me that they were following your advice about not providing 'strong and good-tasting coffee free of charge'. At least, the crowd who went up to Campo's thought so ;-)
DISCLAIMER: With far too much still to do tonight, I've resorted to the evils of caffeine to maintain concentration. Clearly, by the way I'm commenting on a blog battle not my own, the concentration thing is working a treat.
Al - Read Arch Hart.
ReplyDeleteNathan - nope. not me.
Jeff - By happy, I mean finding pleasure in things that are legitimately pleasurable. Read Arch Hart. He says - By stressing your adrenal system (through too much coffee and stress) you can shut down pathways to the pleasure system. So things which should legitimately be fun are unfun. And you become irritable and restless. (Like I am now. I don't do coffee. Pepsi Max is my poison.)
You don't need to be miserable to minister to the miserable! Joy of the Lord and all that.
Michael - Yeah. Students need to toughen up. Back in my day... (the morning teas were way excessive!)
Anyone want to make the poetry thing happen? I can imagine the student whinge already!
Anthony - Saturday night is prime blogging time. I have a kids talk still unfinished. Ahab.
I don't know about college, but most churches serve disgusting coffee! It is all about balance, you ban coffee, next you'll be banning everything but organ music.
ReplyDeleteCoffee is not all bad for you.
ReplyDeleteJust one example:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2006/06/27/1673291.htm
I suspect, though, it's what goes into the mouth with the coffee that's the main risk to ministers', or anyone's, long term health.
Caroline
Wendy - I'm not talking about banning coffee.
ReplyDeleteCaroline - Not sure I'm convinced by that article!
What I'm thinking is that caffeine addiction long term makes you more stressed and more prone to depression. Ministers are stressed and prone to depression anyway. Why exasperate the problem by encouraging them to become coffee drinkers?
"Clinical Psychologists in the USA have carried out research which indicates that caffeine can be a factor in causing or exacerbating depression and that on removal of caffeine from the diet, depression lifts, and on re-introducing it to the diet again, depression worsens. Caffeine can have an anti-depressant action in small amounts but can have a depressive effect in larger amounts. Caffeine users report significantly higher depression scores when compared to non-users. The higher the total caffeine intake, the more likely the subjects were to suffer from depression. The researchers were unable to identify a clear cut dosage level which produced symptoms.
Vitamin B6 is one vitamin involved in the manufacture of serotonin (this chemical is low in people with anxiety and depression). Caffeine depletes the body of vitamin B6, this may be another route where caffeine is involved in depression."
http://stresshelp.tripod.com/id7.html
OK, well it's supposed to be an argument, so I'll take youse all on. Why should we learn poetry at Theological college. Biblical poetry for sure - you've got to learn to understand the Bible. But poetry in general?
ReplyDeleteI agree a good Bible Teacher needs to engage with culture. But different people are going to do that in different ways and everyone should not be forced to appreciate poetry. Why not force everyone to appreciate cricket or movies?
I think it's seriously legalistic to say that all ministers should appreciate poetry - here's at least one who's a bit doubtful!
Coffee isn't a drug, Simone , Caffine is, which means you shouldn't serve Tea either. Next time the pastor comes for a visit, Sprite or Fanta it is!
ReplyDeleteYeah yeah yeah. Caffeine is the drug.
ReplyDeleteBut it comes in higher doses in coffee.
And I'm not talking about at church or in homes - but in the particular situation of a theological college. [And I'm not really all that serious. I voted for the coffee machine at this theological college. Just arguing.]
[Thanks for commenting, btw.]
Why not force everyone to appreciate cricket or movies? Simple. Because appreciating cricket or movies won't help you understand the bible better.
ReplyDeleteKnowing how to recognise poetry when you encounter it, know how to read it, how to be moved by it, how to understand it, how to talk about it so that others are moved by it... surely that is worth learning!
'I think it's seriously legalistic to say that all ministers should appreciate poetry'
All ministers must appreciate poetry if they are to preach the bible well. Engaging in non-biblical poetry is a tool to help us learn to read the bible better (with the added benefit that it will just make life better as well.)
But I know that you know that.
If it is legalism, it's a legalism I am happy to have. Too many ex-engineers treat the Bible like a machine.
ReplyDeleteAnd too many ex-arts students treat the bible like a book....oh darn it there's something wrong with that comeback.
ReplyDeleteStill, as an ex-engineer I'm happy to do everything I can to appreciate the Bible better. But I feel a general poetry course for theological colleges is going beyond that. I think I do appreciate Biblical literature as literature. But try as I might I don't really enjoy other poetry. And I don't think I should be forced to. And this is the room for an argument isn't it?
Education is about being forced to things you don't want to. That's what makes it different from a self-help course.
ReplyDeleteMan up! Go read some Les Murray!
:-)
Yes, but there are a whole wide range of things that we could be educated in - thermodynamics for example. The question is whether it's part of a theological education.
ReplyDeleteI'd also just like to say (in case any of my arguments here are missunderstood) that I was very touched by the poem my dear wife wrote for me for valentines day.
I think a compromise is called for - you can only drink coffee in the Poetry class...
ReplyDeleteI wrote about it here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sydneyanglicans.net/life/culture/you_need_to_read_poetry/
You need to tune your ears to poetry (and not just biblical poetry) not only to be able to understand the Bible but to preach good. Thermodynamics - which arguably should be part of a doctrine of creation class, along with evolution etc - ain't really gonna bring the same justification with it.
I found this post funny, given my husband's roasting business supplies a bulk of MTC students with freshly roasted beans at discount prices. Does that make him a drug lord? If so, I think that's pretty cool :)
ReplyDeleteLove the idea of ministers learning about poetry.
Side point - I'm also all for ministers learning more about art. Theology and art have long been linked and there are many riches to be had by understanding the way artists across the ages have depicted God and the world. Last year Sam and I went to the NGA to see the Impressionists exhibition and it led to some of the meatiest theological discussions we've had in our marriage.
Hey Simone. Which Arch Hart book should I read.
ReplyDeleteI'm in the mood for some tearing down and building.
Al - online there's great stuff to listen to. http://www.stmarkstalks.org/2007/archhart.php
ReplyDeleteI have the book 'thrilled to death'. It doesn't go into the caffeine thing but is really useful.
If you are after motivation to give up coffee, listen to the talks or google "'arch hart' caffeine"
Thanks
ReplyDeleteShouldn't thermodynamics be taught in eschatology classes?
ReplyDeleteI'd offer an opinion, but I don't know what thermodynamics are.
ReplyDelete