tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post8981836173662844627..comments2023-07-18T19:52:35.156+10:00Comments on another something: On disagreeing with eachotherSimone R.http://www.blogger.com/profile/05248239853519762027noreply@blogger.comBlogger113125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-55006148213759641722010-08-29T18:35:42.378+10:002010-08-29T18:35:42.378+10:00Okay, blogger seems to be having trouble with the ...Okay, blogger seems to be having trouble with the size of this post. I'm going to close it here. Thanks for everyone's comments I have read them all (well, maybe not all of Mark and Nathan's!), even if I haven't had time to respond. If I was braver, I'd promise to write another post sometime in the future.<br /><br />Thanks for the good discussion. s.Simone R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05248239853519762027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-54551779255610727912010-08-29T08:21:18.673+10:002010-08-29T08:21:18.673+10:00:)
And HSM3? Dare I ask?:)<br /><br />And HSM3? Dare I ask?Mark Baddeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-17181122059440956282010-08-29T07:40:50.813+10:002010-08-29T07:40:50.813+10:00Mark: I think your HSM example was flawed. HSM was...Mark: I think your HSM example was flawed. HSM was a better moview than HSM2. But a couple of the songs in HSM2 made up a little for the woeful story. And that is gospel. Ask anyone.Simone R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05248239853519762027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-68695383261510698232010-08-29T02:55:40.398+10:002010-08-29T02:55:40.398+10:00Somewhat more seriously,
Nathan,
Thanks for maki...Somewhat more seriously,<br /><br />Nathan,<br /><br />Thanks for making that clearer. I don't think that's what is usually meant by 'Christian freedom' or its equivalents. What you're articulating there is pretty darn fundamental for an evangelical approach to the ministry of the Word, but it's not 'Christian freedom'. <br /><br />I think 'Christian freedom' is predicated on the idea that, in certain circumstances, there is no best decision - that within a circle bounded by certain principles (that vary from issue to issue) any decision is as legitimate as any other. Drink, don't drink. Keep the sabbath, don't. Eat meat, don't eat it. Like High School Musical best, prefer High School Musical 2 more (that one was for you Simone). There's no 'best' there. And so, no issue of a clear conscience either.<br /><br />I'd encourage you to go and have a chat with Andrew Bain at your college about something (or somethings) you can read about the issue. I think your ministry will be enhanced if you have a bit more of that kind of concept in play. That's not 'pulling rank' or anything, just an encouragement. And you're free not to take it...Mark Baddeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-37780828547300241032010-08-29T02:46:49.997+10:002010-08-29T02:46:49.997+10:00Now look what you've gone and done, Anthony!
...Now look what you've gone and done, Anthony!<br /><br />You reduced a perfectly good outsized thread to about eight lines of text.<br /><br />Pfft! Good thing you weren't speaking up earlier, otherwise we'd have never gotten over the 100 comment mark.Mark Baddeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-5243724905627466342010-08-29T02:00:41.178+10:002010-08-29T02:00:41.178+10:00Mark: In the whole group of educational decisions,...Mark: In the whole group of educational decisions, there is not always in every situation the same best decision.<br />Nathan: Yes there is. <br /><br />or<br /><br />Mark: The best decision in one case is not necessarily the same as the best decision in another.<br />Nathan: Yes it is.<br /><br />Looks like the difference between ethics by case and ethics by category. <br /><br />(I was taught how to summarise at school...;-)Anthony Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16277745466192451883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-63736499261265633692010-08-28T11:19:03.678+10:002010-08-28T11:19:03.678+10:00"In such a situation, I don't think we..."In such a situation, I don't think we're 'free'. Unless you can explain what you mean by 'free' and it means something like - you won't go to Hell, and there shouldn't be church discipline consequences."<br /><br />You're free to come to an entirely different decision to me, using an entirely different approach. You're free to disagree with me. You're free to tell me I'm wrong. You're free to use a different theological framework and reach the same decision. You're free to use the same theological framework and reach a different decision. <br /><br />There is plenty of space for freedom. I do, however, think there is a best decision in all decisions. And I think part of serving one another is offering our thoughts as to that best decision in love, and in a non-binding manner. <br /><br />I think we're all free to make wrong decisions in our attempt to be obedient to God. I think that's what grace is for. I think we should be aiming to extend the same grace that God does for wrong decisions to other people who make wrong decisions.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317381886477652487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-63295037555900577342010-08-28T01:19:41.720+10:002010-08-28T01:19:41.720+10:00Hi Nathan,
I'll see if I can make this reason...Hi Nathan,<br /><br />I'll see if I can make this reasonably short. I agree that you're offering your opinion as to the implications of wisdom and theology. You're not saying it has the voice of God behind it directly.<br /><br />But you're saying that there is a best decision. You're saying that that best decision captures important principles such as James 1 and 2, and the great commission. One decision, that can be seen by a reasonable person who looks carefully at the issues, captures these principles in a way that none other can. <br /><br />It is so clearly one, that you can't make any other decision with a clear decision. And you're not saying that as a 'for me personally'. You've said that you make no apologies for pressing other Christians to make the best decision available. So it should the same for them as well unless their circumstances are quite unusual.<br /><br />In such a situation, I don't think we're 'free'. Unless you can explain what you mean by 'free' and it means something like - you won't go to Hell, and there shouldn't be church discipline consequences.<br /><br />Where there is a <i>best</i> decision, and that best decision is connected to ethics and theology, such that conscience is bound, then we are not in the realm of 'Christian freedom' at least as I think it has been traditionally understood.<br /><br />You think this is an issue where there is a right answer (the best one which we should always take) and a bunch of wrong answers (ones that aren't best which we should not take). <br /><br />I think my protests about Christian freedom are therefore appropriate <i>because I don't agree that there is a "best" decision</i>. If you're right and there's a best decision then there's no freedom to see here folks, move along.Mark Baddeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-1042035706660215122010-08-27T16:38:22.269+10:002010-08-27T16:38:22.269+10:00Cordelia Being Quite Blunt Today Fitzgerald
Annit...Cordelia Being Quite Blunt Today Fitzgerald<br /><br />Annita,<br /><br />Not quite. I have not indicated that ‘we’ are stereotyping homeschoolers. I was politely trying to establish that homeschoolers are stereotypes. And, of course, this is not based on 1 -2 students. That is ridiculous. I am speaking from years of teaching experience, and contact with homeschoolers across different contexts. I don’t think it is ‘stereotyping’ to state that the majority of homeschoolers are motivated by a desire to segregate their children, in some way, from the influence/s of the world. This is true. You have also indicated that this is true of your decision to homeschool in your first post. It is also not ‘stereotyping’ to state that homeschoolers have strange social skills. This is also true. Most teachers who deal with homeschoolers agree with this. And others.<br /><br />My comments regarding the more rigorous mandates which pertain in Queensland were, in some small way, a support of what Simone was questioning in her original post. That is, if you segregate your children, how, then, are they in the world, or a witness to it? It then became clear that several interstate ‘commenters’ were indicating that some of the homeschoolers, who had crossed their paths, were not as we were positioning them to be. That led me to provide the contextual information regarding homeschooling in Queensland because I think our sociocultural context, including the laws and norms of the state, shape us to some extent. So, thus, if the homeschooling practices are more flexible in other states, it makes sense that there would be more diversity amongst homeschoolers. The Queensland norms for homeschooling are more limiting and so, thus, you have less diversity here. I was highlighting our experiences of homeschoolers in order to show why, perhaps, we had a questioning of homeschooling as an educational alternative in the original post. <br /><br />Those comments regarding the state of homeschooling in Queensland were also in response to some comments above, which were tentatively positing the possibilities of homeschooling as a kind of anarchic, counter-cultural freedom. I wanted to point out that, as things stand in most states, this is not possible - unfortunately. <br /><br />My comments are specific, really, to homeschooling and education. I have not commented on the Great Commission – for an explication of the positions on this see above!!! However, I wholeheartedly endorse Simone’s original premise which was something along the lines of ‘our choices for our children often reflect our own idols and insatiable desire for status.’ It is something to be considered carefully. For example, if you send your children to a private school, isn’t it important to be aware of what you are buying into, participating in? Yes, of course, non Christians in Private Schools need the gospel, and, oops, look at that, your child has also acquired a fair dollop of social capital and an entrée into the best universities as well?!??!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-30789592080844768542010-08-27T11:06:24.079+10:002010-08-27T11:06:24.079+10:00My only "should" is that we should make ...My only "should" is that we should make the decision about schooling with more than just a concern to screen unhelpful ideas from our children. We should assume that we are the primary educators, and influencers, of our children, then the church, then their peers, then the school. <br /><br />The rest is a voicing of my opinion as to how this plays out in the real word. If you think my words carry the authority of scripture then I understand your concerns. But I don't think that. I think I am just voicing what I think is the best option following the application of theology and wisdom.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317381886477652487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-75063925532720823472010-08-27T11:05:38.293+10:002010-08-27T11:05:38.293+10:00Umm. So. A comment disappeared. Lets try again.
...Umm. So. A comment disappeared. Lets try again. <br /><br />Does it matter to God whether we make the best decisions available?<br />My answer is yes. <br /><br />"There’s no ‘should’ that does not come from God, is there?" <br /><br />I think Paul might disagree in 1 Corinthians 7 (v10-12). <br /><br />"The only 'shoulds' are ones that matter to God."<br /><br />Indeed, and I think you're kind of missing my point here. I challenge you to read through my words and find a time that I say "you must send your kids to state schools"...<br /><br />My argument is this:<br /><br />1. You should make decisions with evangelism as a factor. I think the Bible leads to this framework. I suspect you do to. <br /><br />2. When I approach this decision using that framework I think that public schooling is the best option. That is my personal opinion, based on my experience and other personal presuppositions. <br /><br />3. I, can not, in a clear conscience, hold to step one, and step two, without then sending my children to the local school.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317381886477652487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-61544395371815478422010-08-27T10:25:10.816+10:002010-08-27T10:25:10.816+10:00Sorry, I meant 1 Corinthians 7:10-12.Sorry, I meant 1 Corinthians 7:10-12.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317381886477652487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-24827856342782498162010-08-27T04:53:28.127+10:002010-08-27T04:53:28.127+10:00Hi Nathan,
Okies, the homosexual marriage issue i...Hi Nathan,<br /><br />Okies, the homosexual marriage issue is fairly important in its own right, so I've commented on the post you linked above. It'll be interesting to see where that goes.Mark Baddeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-48315315193922106272010-08-26T23:49:23.215+10:002010-08-26T23:49:23.215+10:00Hi Nathan,
I think you and I have different views...Hi Nathan,<br /><br />I think you and I have different views about what ‘freedom’ means in the phrase ‘Christian freedom’.<br /><br />Let’s recap and I’ll try and show my problem with what you’re saying. I ask, does it matter to God what we choose when schooling and you say:<br /><br /><i> No. Not particularly.</i><br /><br /><br />That I recognise as a clear statement of Christian freedom. Keep the Sabbath, don’t, keep special days, treat every day as special it doesn’t matter and I (the Apostle Paul) won’t then say, ‘but you should do one or the other’.<br /><br />But what do we have around this clear statement that it does not matter <i>to God</i> what I choose?<br /><br />+One option is the wisest and we should always choose the wisest option.<br />+Only sending children to public schools is loving the widow and orphan and not showing favouritism to the rich<br />+There is no legitimate reason to homeschool except for educational benefits (and they don’t exist by the way)<br /><br />And so we finish with:<br /><br /><i> Yeah, I'm saying because it's a good decision we should take it. I make no apology for suggesting Christians should make the best decisions available.</i><br /><br />So, let me rephrase the question: <br /><br />Does it matter to God whether we make the best decisions available?<br /><br />Surely your answer is ‘yes’. There’s no ‘should’ that does not come from God, is there? “It does not matter to God but we should do it anyway” kind of idea, surely? The only 'shoulds' are ones <i>that matter to God</i>.<br /><br />Which means that, as state schooling is the best decision available, God actually wants Christians to be sending their kids to state schools.<br /><br />Which means we're not free on this issue after all.Mark Baddeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-58776153640133106072010-08-26T23:06:07.052+10:002010-08-26T23:06:07.052+10:00Hi Nathan,
Thanks for the links. We aren't g...Hi Nathan,<br /><br />Thanks for the links. We aren't going to see eye to eye there either. The best two articles I've seen on the issue, both by people quite sympathetic to the homosexual cause overall are:<br /><br />http://fireflydove.wordpress.com/2009/10/12/a-libertarian-view-of-gay-marriage/<br /><br />http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/533narty.asp?pg=1<br /><br />I agree with those who argue that marriage has always been understood as a way of creating a stable environment for children that are likely to be produced by the activity of heterosexual sex.<br /><br />Calling a partnership between two people of the same gender fundamentally changes what marriage is - in much the same way that introducing no fault divorced fundamentally changed the nature of the family in a small but very signicant way. People pushing for the change know that - they want marriage and sex disconnected from reproduction. <br /><br />Arguing for the individual 'hard case' - what about the person who ends up with two parents the same gender, aren't they better off with two people who love them then none at all? Is the kind of thinking that the first of the articles above addresses. By setting up a law that normalises homosexual families with children you then open up <i>future</i> children to be adopted by homosexual partnerships, and it <i>really</i> cuts against the grain to allow adoption agencies that won't adopt to homosexual couples or to allow people to adopt who aren't in favour of homosexuality.<br /><br />I don't know of anywhere yet that has successfully done what you think should happen - say homosexuality is fine legally, and then allow religious groups to disciminate in their social activities.Mark Baddeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-30227487651031166262010-08-26T22:58:41.044+10:002010-08-26T22:58:41.044+10:00Oh no. One of my comments has disappeared. Let me ...Oh no. One of my comments has disappeared. Let me rehash. <br /><br />"If God has things to say about parenting (and he does!) and he doesn’t ever make an argument that looks anything like that, then we need to take heed of that."<br /><br />I would argue that there are plenty of passages that suggest the work of the kingdom, of which evangelism is a subset, should be part of our approach to life - of which parenting, and even decisions about education, are a part. <br /><br />I'm not being legalistic, I think there's plenty of freedom here, but I also think there's an optimal option in the light of this framework.<br /><br />I can't see how pulling children out of the only educational sphere available for the poor (for example, I don't think many single mums have the freedom to homeschool) and putting them in cloistered environments is how we should love widows and orphans (James 1) or it may even be showing favouritism to the rich (James 2)<br /><br />"Does it particularly matter before God whether Christians send their kids to state or Christian or private schools or homeschool them?"<br /><br />No. Not particularly. But is one course wiser? I'm not sure that any of the reasons outside of "educational benefits" are legitimate for homeschooling - and in practice most teachers will tell you that children coming back into the schooling fold after a period of homeschooling have not enjoyed the benefits you suggest they might...<br /><br />"You both think that homeschooling is a pretty dodgy option for a Christian to take."<br /><br />I think it can be. Especially if it's a decision taken in order to "shelter" your children from scary heathens. Or from scary heathen ideas. As though sending your kids to a state school abdicates your parental responsibilty for their education. I'm sure some people might be philosophically predisposed to homeschooling for different reasons. <br /><br />You think most Christians should be sending their kids to the local state school. And it’s not ‘should’ in the ‘Reformed Presbetyrianism is a bit better than Reformed Baptist as a way of doing Church’. <br /><br />I think that's pretty much what I am suggesting it is actually, I am convinced one is better than the other, so I will speak my mind. Even if just to correct those who suggest you can't be a responsible parent and send your kids to a state school. <br /><br />"It’s not ‘in the Bible’, but you think it is the most natural decision in light of what the Bible says. You’re not just commending it as a good decision that can be justified in light of the Bible, it’s just a bit more than that."<br /><br />Yeah, I'm saying because it's a good decision we should take it. I make no apology for suggesting Christians should make the best decisions available.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317381886477652487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-39957884726326970312010-08-26T22:40:02.959+10:002010-08-26T22:40:02.959+10:00Mark,
The gay marriage thing is just far too off...Mark, <br /><br />The gay marriage thing is just far too off topic for here - but I wrote a little bit about <a href="http://st-eutychus.com/2010/gay-marriage-ethics-and-economics/" rel="nofollow">my position here</a>, and <a href="http://st-eutychus.com/2010/family-last-why-im-not-voting-1-for-family-first-despite-being-a-christian/" rel="nofollow">a little here</a>.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317381886477652487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-36504841630660434092010-08-26T21:59:01.605+10:002010-08-26T21:59:01.605+10:00LOL! Well, I figured it was about that point in t...LOL! Well, I figured it was about that point in the thread for some hamming-up. Whether the joke ended up on me or you or both of us doesn't really worry me. Laughter is a bit of an end in itself for me too :)<br /><br />I'm happy to concede the point - I'm the performing clown this time around.Mark Baddeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-48159691141845040022010-08-26T21:46:32.593+10:002010-08-26T21:46:32.593+10:00Now we've gone a fair way off topic.
And us ...Now we've gone a fair way off topic. <br /><br />And us young'uns don't always feel the need to demonstrate when we're being ironic. Nor do we need to insert stage directions. Words speak for themselves. <br /><br />But let me point out, just briefly, what I was getting at with the comment that you reacted to so dramatically. Or perhaps, for fear of illegitmate totality transfer, theatrically. <br /><br />"And it's sad that you don't want to teach your children the gospel and make them disciples. Which is the only conclusion I draw from you saying the great commission doesn't come into your parenting."<br /><br />You realise I'm pretty certain you do want to teach your kids the gospel right... Here's how I actually interpreted your statement...<br /><br />Here's what you said:<br /><br />"I open my Bible, and say to myself, “What role should the great commission play in how I am a father to my children” I turn to the OT law that discusses a parent’s role. Hmmmn nothing there. I turn to the wisdom literature. Nothing there either. I turn to Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles and his instructions to fathers. What do you know, nothing again."<br /><br />I assumed the "don't" was missing not because I didn't think you opened scripture - but because I thought you didn't approach scripture asking "what does the great commission say to me about parenting"... I thought the "nothing there... nothing there either" implied that you found nothing in the great commission either. <br /><br />Which I thought was legitimate in the light of:<br />"My fathering of my children is an end in itself. It is not a means to some other end. I don’t father my children to further the great commission."<br /><br />So basically, I assumed you'd made a typo. Not sure that deserved the treatment it received... I wasn't being cute. And I think you'll see that I was actually trying to read it in the light of the surrounding paragraphs.Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12317381886477652487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-67356548155119240682010-08-26T21:35:11.821+10:002010-08-26T21:35:11.821+10:00Thanks for the good wishes Cornelia. I operate wi...Thanks for the good wishes Cornelia. I operate within the state education law, because I want to obey God's word (Rom 13:1) All of God's word, in fact - including Matt 28:18-20. <br /><br />Which is what I thought this blog post was originally about. <br /><br />There seemed to be a charged leveled at home schoolers that they couldn't fulfill the great commission quite as well as public schoolers. I'm not sure how naughty Qlders who operate outside the law, or the peculiar 'special dispensation' for Qld homeschoolers fits with the discussion at hand? Nor how some who might think they are achieving counter-cultural freedom, actually (in your opinion) aren't? <br /><br />OK. I might have been a little bit loose in my previous posts. What I wanted to show is this: there are those of us out there, who have chosen the homeschooling option, because we think it is a better option 1.spiritually and 2. educationally for our children. Using homeschooling as the springboard, we have devised a plan by which we as a family can be a blessing to the wider community by obeying Jesus' great commission, and raise children who love and honour Jesus for themselves. We humbly and prayerfully rely on the Spirits work for this. <br /><br />You have fessed up to stereotyping homeschoolers as being motivated by a desire to 'minimise contact with non Christian peers', and 'to being a little bit weird'. It seems that you are painting all homeschoolers with the one brush, derived from very slim experience - that being one or two individuals from 'a particular Christian community'. Is that fair? <br /><br />I'm a red head, but you'd sure get me wrong if you assumed I was just like Julia Gillard, because she was the only other red head you knew!!<br /><br />Cheers ;)annitanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-55394015240701354132010-08-26T21:30:47.385+10:002010-08-26T21:30:47.385+10:00More pragmatically, it helps to have escape routes...More pragmatically, it helps to have escape routes in the future. You might never have to use them, but it’s always nice to have a fire door. The Greens and the Labour left want homosexual marriage, and want churches to have to not ‘discriminate’ against practicing homosexuals. Aussies are pretty conservative, so there’s not a lot of support for it. But I’m not sure there’s much opposition either if someone decided to push it. <br /><br />My limited reading about what happened in Massachusetts when they intro’d homosexual marriage (by judicial decision) was that public schools immediately started introducing ‘gay pride’ days and the like to teach children that homosexuality was normal. When parents appealed to the courts that they wanted to be able to take their kids out of such things, the courts ruled that the schools had an obligation to normalise homosexuality for kids now marriage was legal for it. <br /><br />At the risk of Nathan accusing me of some kind of X-Files paranoia once again, those sort of moves are less likely if the State knows that if it pushes too far ahead of public opinion people have the option of stepping back altogether from its schools. Some rights help everyone, even those who don’t want them exercised much. We don’t know what will develop over the next twenty years in Oz. So some options for worst and next-to-worst case scenarios would be good to have in advance.Mark Baddeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-31856606509533409452010-08-26T21:26:36.685+10:002010-08-26T21:26:36.685+10:00Hi Cordelia,
And as for a friendly discussion, i...Hi Cordelia,<br /><br /><i> And as for a friendly discussion, it doesn't always sound like it, does it? At least not to this new Christian. I suppose that's what happens when 'you' start having a poke around the conservative values which encrust the Evangelical, Reformed Idiom. You get attakced.</i><br /><br />This conversation has been a bit intense because it’s primarily Nathan and I. I’ll leave it at that :) . If Simone had talked more, or more women had driven the conversation more, or guys who weren’t arguing for something but more just wondering aloud, it would have ‘felt’ different. I argue differently with women because they don’t enjoy the argy-bargey that guys who are trying to be the chief buck in the paddock find fun (that kind of includes me, but I actually <i>am</i> the chief buck (Heh) so the ‘trying’ bit doesn’t really relate to me). It’s also a bit more intense because the Richardsons and the Baddeleys have been friends for (cough cough, us Gen Xers are getting old fast) years and Nathan is one of Simone’s minions (hee!) – so the relationship is already in place and we don’t have to try and build a safe place for each other in the thread – it’s already there and we can take a few more relational risks.<br /><br />The homeschooling legality insight was very interesting – thanks for that, I think it’s one of the most useful bits of the thread. I’m not really fussed about the state having some kind of oversight about what’s happening educationally. Requiring a curriculum is fine with me, as my primary thought is that homeschooling could possibly do <i>more</i> than the curriculum, and the state can’t really stop that (nor should it want to) if the curriculum really has been properly covered. <br /><br />Homeschooling being <i>illegal</i> is a different thing. There’s no way I could get anyone to agree with this, I suspect. ‘Conservatives’ almost never stick together and fight for anything that they themselves don’t personally believe in and want. But I think Christiains in Qld who don’t homeschool should give <i>serious</i> consideration to getting that changed. You don’t have to use a right, or even want many others to use it, to not want that right on the books.<br /><br />There was a case recently in the States where a German couple successfully got ‘political refugee’ from a judge (over the <i>strenuous</i> opposition from the Federal Govt) because homeschooling is illegal in Germany. The judge’s observation was along the lines of ‘it was hard to think of something more antithetical to American values of freedom’ then for government to so heavy handedly micromanage parenting and that it was simply obvious that it was ground for asylum. (A friend of mine from the Continent explained to me when I queried the case that countries like Germany see children as fundamentally citizens and parents have no inherent right to raise them, whereas English countries see the family as the more basic social unit and the state exists to help families. Hence the general difference in the approach to how much the state should intervene to protect kids from their parents.)<br /><br />I think most Aussies, if we thought about it, and despite Nathan’s championing of an all-benevolent State, would basically concur with that judge. Our view of freedom is much the same as the American one, and not the German, at this point I think. As is our view of the relationship of the family and the state. We think that government should be creating a climate that encourages families and makes what they do easier. They should be keeping out of the details of family life <i>as much as they possibly can</i> and only get involved with the utmost reluctance. So the right to homeschool, <i>even if we never use it</i>, better reflects our convictions about human life.Mark Baddeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-26677357126404554982010-08-26T21:23:53.984+10:002010-08-26T21:23:53.984+10:00And that’s why I agree with your college about Gre...And that’s why I agree with your college about Greek and not you. The Reformers wanted the Bible in the vernacular and the teachers of the Bible to be <i>fluent</i> in Greek and Hebrew. Show them modern language software and they’d <i>still</i> want that. A person who can’t read the text, but needs a computer to parse every other word, can’t read the text. As someone who has just gone through the agony of getting by with language software and then had Oxford require me to sight translate, not koine greek, but patristic greek (which added a year to our stay here) I can testify that it is night and day the effect it has on your engagement with the text. You might disagree with the Reformers at this point, but the issue is not about technology, it’s about learning to think and function in the language.Mark Baddeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-40601391889546807472010-08-26T21:19:54.559+10:002010-08-26T21:19:54.559+10:00As for the example from my dad, I think the issue ...As for the example from my dad, I think the issue here has to do with language and data. If you are immersed in lots of information, you find it hard to sit with some. And being a good engineer/scientist/humanities/theologian person involves not just information but becoming a certain kind of person - developing a certain stance, patterns of thinking and the like. The sheer weight of information at the moment makes that hard. <br /><br />It's why I can't agree with your assessment about how much better theological education is now. Michael Jensen commented to me as he was finishing up his DPhil here – “I’m going to be getting the students to read less stuff, and pick at the best things for them and get them to really sit with them.” Mastering a discipline isn’t fundamentally about getting lots of knowledge. It’s about learning a way of thinking, a way of acting, that comes <i>through</i> learning the knowledge of the discipline but is much, much more than that. A lot of American students come to Oxford out of a system like what you’re describing and they are unequipped for what is expected of them – original thought that has been shaped by sustained reflection on the best examples of the discipline, not simply an ability to gather everything said on the topic.<br /><br />And the other side is language. Simple language moves data faster I agree. But complex language is needed for complex thought. That’s why academic language is hard work and fairly complicated – it’s a tool for complex thinking. The simplification of language works for where a lot of where people are at, but it the cost turns up when they have to face advanced education – they don’t really have the tools to do that intellectual work. Reflection, not just knowledge acquisition.Mark Baddeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-911707550436621468.post-6990617648280401322010-08-26T21:13:31.701+10:002010-08-26T21:13:31.701+10:00Okay, it's official. Simone's blog hates ...Okay, it's official. Simone's blog hates me. Let's try again, this comes before the one above:<br /><br />As for your and Simone’s protests of being champions of Christian freedom, I won’t go back through the thread and show all the various wordings you’ve done that suggest otherwise. I think Cathy are thinking on the same lines here. I think where you and Simone stand on this can be flushed out with some kind of simple diagnostic question such as:<br /><br />Does it particularly matter before God whether Christians send their kids to state or Christian or private schools or homeschool them? <br />You both think that homeschooling is a pretty dodgy option <i>for a Christian to take</i>. You think most Christians should be sending their kids to the local state school. And it’s not ‘should’ in the ‘Reformed Presbetyrianism is a bit better than Reformed Baptist as a way of doing Church’. It’s not ‘in the Bible’, but you think it is the most natural decision in light of what the Bible says. You’re not just commending it as a good decision that can be justified in light of the Bible, it’s just a bit more than that. So it’s not an issue of Christian freedom for you guys – it’s not a ‘you shall not murder’ requirement, but it’s not adiaphora either.Mark Baddeleynoreply@blogger.com